I Know Dino Podcast Present Notes: Shantungosaurus (Episode 89)

In our 89th episode, we had the pleasure of talking with David Trexler, Cory Coverdell, and Kara Ludwig from the Two Medication Dinosaur Heart in Bynum, Montana.

To be taught extra concerning the museum, try our video in half 3 of our #EpicDinosaurRoadTrip.

Episode 89 can also be all about Shantungosaurus, one of many largest identified ornithischians.

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On this episode, we focus on:

  • The dinosaur of the day: Shantungosaurus
  • Identify means “Shandong Lizard”
  • Sort species is Shantungosaurus giganteus
  • Described in 1973 by Hu, and identified from 5 incomplete skeletons
  • Discovered a bone mattress of 5 people, none full
  • Composited bones to mount one of many largest hadrosaurids
  • Composite skeleton is mounted on the Geological Institute of China in Beijing, and is 48 ft (14.7 m ) lengthy
  • One other mounted skeleton, which was once known as Zhuchengosaurus maximus, is 54 ft (16.6 m) lengthy
  • Synonym is Zhuchengosaurus maximus
  • Zhuchengosaurus turned out to be a special progress stage of Shantungosaurus
  • One of many largest identified ornithischians
  • Most likely the most important non-sauropod (largest ornithischian)
  • Might have weighed as much as 16 tons (18 brief tons)
  • Cranium that was discovered is 5.3 ft (1.63 m) lengthy
  • Spinosaurus had comparable size, however didn’t weigh as a lot
  • Unclear why it was so massive
  • Saurolophine hadrosaurid that lived within the late Cretaceous in what’s now China
  • Xu Xing and colleagues stated it’s just like Edmontosaurus
  • No crest on the highest of the cranium, so not a saurolophine, however had a big nasal opening
  • Close to its nostrils is a big gap, probably lined by a unfastened flap that it might inflate to make sounds
  • Might have made sounds to defend its territory
  • Had a toothless beak, however its jaws had 1500 chewing enamel
  • Hadrosauridae (duck billed dinosaurs) is a household of widespread herbivores from the Cretaceous whose fossils have been present in Asia, Europe, and North America
  • Enjoyable reality: Although snakes can’t see as vast of a spectrum of crimson as dinosaurs most likely might, they will “see” infrared (AKA warmth). In actual fact the pit viper is known as after a pit that appears rather a lot like a nostril, however is definitely a delicate infrared detector. And so they seem to make use of this organ whereas searching to seek out an uncovered space on heat blooded prey. These IR detecting pits seem to have advanced at the very least twice independently amongst totally different teams of snakes, so it’s potential that perhaps a number of dinosaurs advanced the power too. And if say T-rex had advanced infra-red imaginative and prescient we couldn’t inform by birds since T-rex had already break up from the group of dinosaurs that later advanced into birds.

For individuals who might choose studying, see under for the complete transcript of our interview withDavid Trexler, Cory Coverdell, and Kara Ludwig:

Garret: So I assume the largest query, the best query, effectively perhaps not the best reply, is what drew you to Bynum to open a dinosaur museum right here?

David Trexler: Nicely my mom discovered her first dinosaur bone nearly 5 miles west of right here again in 1917. My household homesteaded right here, and I knew that there have been dinosaur stays right here earlier than I knew that there have been dinosaur museums. So it’s all the time been right here that was my first place to look. However then I’ve labored just about all of the vital locations in western North America, and what that has finished is it’s important to depart house and have a look at different locations earlier than you notice how particular house is. And for me the fantastic factor is the Two Medication formation turned out to be distinctive on this planet. We’ve discovered so many firsts, if you’ll, so many new issues that it actually was a spectacular place to be for paleo.

Garret: Nice. And talking of firsts, you guys discovered domestically the primary nesting dinosaur I assume you’d say.

David Trexler: We discovered the primary child dinosaur bones in a nest anyplace on this planet, sure. That discovery modified the way in which the whole world considered animals normally, and reptiles at the very least, not simply dinosaurs due to the distinctive manner they have been preserved. So actually cool discover.

Garret: Yeah undoubtedly, and one other distinctive factor about your museum is you might have the world’s largest dinosaur duplicate I assume you’d name it.

David Trexler: Yeah, reconstruction.

Cory Coverdell: So it’s 137 toes lengthy, 137.5, and it’s a mannequin of Seismosaurus, which was discovered down in New Mexico.

David Trexler: Some individuals not use the identify Seismosaurus there’s been a paper or two revealed altering the identify, however there’s some issues with these publications and sometime anyone’s going to undergo that entire factor and it’ll both be again to Seismosaurus or it’ll be Diplodocus halli.

Sabrina: How did you determine to make that duplicate?

David Trexler: The duplicate was constructed usually because we have been contracted to construct the centerpiece for the most important travelling exhibition on this planet, the factor known as Dino Fest again within the Nineteen Nineties. And the most important exhibition needed the most important dinosaur to be part of it. The issue was at the moment a few paleontologists have been having this bit argument over whose is largest, so you realize Dave Gillette along with his Seismosaurus versus Jim Jensen and Supersaurus, and we needed to decide which one would have really been the largest. After which a part of what we have been requested to do was decide whether or not there might have been one thing even greater on the market, and naturally there all the time might have been.

However what we ended up doing at that time was going to each museum in western North America that had sauropod stays and contacting mainly all the opposite museums around the globe and getting measurements on sure bones that will give us an concept on what sizes they’d, and simply bone items. We had many many extra bone items in collections than we do skeletons, so items inform us extra really. And the results of all of that was we have been capable of construct this duplicate to not solely match what we decided to be barely the most important of the 2, Seismosaurus versus supersaurus, however then scale it up barely to match the most important particular person bones we additionally have been made conscious of. In order that’s the way it got here to be.

Garret: After which when the exhibit ended you simply acquired it again and wrapped it up in your museum?

David Trexler: When the exhibit ended the corporate contacted us and requested us if we’d like to purchase it. And an remoted museum out in the course of nowhere, we knew how a lot they paid to have it constructed and there’s no manner we might ever afford that. However 12 months’s negotiation and a very artistic refinance on nearly all the things we owned we ended up with it.

Garret: Cool. Do you assume it attracts lots of people to the museum?

David Trexler: It most likely accounts for perhaps one out of seven folks that come by means of the door I might say.

Sabrina: That’s fairly good.

Garret: Yeah. Talking of issues that carry individuals in, there’s the Montana Dinosaur Path I wanna say it’s known as with 12 museums I wanna say, or there abouts?

Cory Coverdell: 14.

Garret: 14, okay. I do know considered one of them closed not too long ago.

Cory Coverdell: It was once 15.

Garret: Oh 15.

David Trexler: Truly we’ve had two shut and we’ve added one because the inception.

Garret: Cool. Do you assume that brings lots of people right here too? Do you get lots of people with that, there’s like a passport or one thing you will get stamped at each museum?

David Trexler: I think that it brings in really a number of greater than the precise Seismosaurus exhibit. It’s most likely on the neighborhood of 1 out of each 5 individuals come by means of the door are conscious of the Montana Dinosaur Path.

Garret: Cool.

Kara Ludwig: Plenty of occasions they’re not essentially actively doing the passport, however they now know oh the Montana Dinosaur Path, I ought to go to all these museums.

Garret: Do you, I used to be questioning how that labored as a result of I do know you get like a shirt or one thing in case you go to all of them. Do you guys have like a inventory of those shirts? Or what do you do when somebody will get right here they’re like okay I’m finished?

David Trexler: The shirt is distributed to them.

Garret: Oh gotcha.

Cory Coverdell: There’s the one girl who takes care of all of the background for the group and he or she will get the shirt orders from us and sends out the shirt.

Sabrina: After which after all you’ve additionally most likely drawn in lots of people together with your instructor-led just like the digs and…

Cory Coverdell: We ran between three and 4 hundred individuals each summer season by means of our subject applications. So it’s fairly a number of individuals, it’s really one of many major methods we fund our group.

Garret: Nice.

David Trexler: And due to the applications we have now really extra attendance apart from the large government-funded services, you realize, actually are marketed as attracts in their very own proper. Issues like Makoshika Park and the Museum of the Rockies, the Fort Peck Interpretive Heart, we’re quantity 4 after these three.

Garret: Oh wow, that’s nice. Particularly for a city of what did you say, 31?

David Trexler: 31.

Sabrina: 37 in the summertime.

Garret: How most of the 31 folks that stay in Bynum work right here?

Cory Coverdell: Work right here or related to this place? Eight within the winter and fourteen.

Garret: That’s good. I wager in case you did just like the statistics you may be like the most important proportion employer of like a metropolis.

Cory Coverdell: We should always run these statistics, that will be enjoyable.

Garret: You most likely make use of extra individuals than like Microsoft employs in like Seattle and issues like that.

Cory Coverdell: However solely throughout the summer season.

Sabrina: Nicely I used to be enthusiastic about like what we did as we speak. What was the official identify if it?

Kara Ludwig: So it was a full day dig program, so we prefer to take individuals out to our websites and present them learn how to determine dinosaur bone, get them understanding how paleontology really works. It’s not all discovering an ideal dinosaur within the floor with only a layer of sand masking it and there you go and also you simply dig out every bone and there you go.

Sabrina: It’s none of that.

Kara Ludwig: None of that. We’re very centered on scientific analysis and never simply in gathering issues as a result of they’re neat. We actually wish to get it throughout to the general public that paleontology really is correct science, and that it includes a variety of buying knowledge and deciphering issues based mostly on that.

Cory Coverdell: Discovering neat stuff is de facto cool although.

Kara Ludwig: Discovering neat stuff is de facto cool.

Garret: And when did you guys begin that program?

David Trexler: Truly this system began this facility.

Garret: Oh actually?

David Trexler: We have been doing analysis in public education schemes by means of the Outdated Path Museum for a few years, however in 1995 the board down there determined that occasions have been robust and analysis actually didn’t contribute that a lot, and this space was already well-known for what had already been finished. In order that they actually needed to modify extra to only straight interpretive applications, and a few of us hadn’t gone to highschool for 9 years after highschool and obtained levels to inform individuals what our colleagues have been doing and never having the ability to do it ourselves. So we got here up right here.

Garret: Cool.

Sabrina: What’s essentially the most thrilling factor somebody has discovered? I do know somebody discovered a tyrannosaur tooth on one of many websites.

Garret: On one of many digs, as a layman.

Sabrina: Simply as, yeah within the nesting website.

Kara Ludwig: Yeah so simply final week we had a lady discover a tyrannosaur tooth, and the week earlier than {that a} youngster really discovered the primary embryonic bone at our nest website. That was fairly thrilling. And it was form of simply luck however you realize that’s actually cool.

Cory Coverdell: From our applications we’ve had individuals discover dinosaur toes. There’s been a part of a, we expect it’s an […] (00:10:11) arm most likely, we don’t know precisely what it’s but. Plenty of the little bits, a variety of cool stuff although.

David Trexler: Probably the most important factor individuals have discovered to this point with us is a website that was found in 1997 the place we have now stays, we collected over 2,000 specimens, particular person bones after which elements, from at the very least 11 particular person animals. And it’s the primary website the place a number of people of tyrannosaurs and hadrosaurs have been discovered collectively with out being a, what we name an accretional bone mattress, with out being simply one thing that’s carried down river and piled. These animals have been really interacting with one another once they died. Makes it a world-class discovery, and truly papers are in press now.

The issue we’ve acquired once you discover one thing like that’s you’ve acquired you realize 20, 30, generally even a 50 12 months lag based mostly on how lengthy it really takes to protect and put together all of those bones out of the matrix. That discovery is now nonetheless the principle factor you see on the market individuals engaged on, and hopefully we’ll have sufficient of it finished this 12 months that, extra than simply the introductory papers which have really been revealed will get finished this 12 months.

Garret: Wow that’d be nice.

Sabrina: What number of totally different websites have you ever had individuals be on?

Cory Coverdell: Nicely over 50.

Sabrina: Wow.

Garret: Are they largely native? I do know you do some joint work with one other museum in Montana.

Cory Coverdell: We’ve really collaborated on dig websites all throughout Montana with six different members of the Montana Dinosaur Path and we do a variety of work throughout. It has to do with staffing greater than something. We’ve got you realize degreed paleontologists on workers which many of the different services don’t, so that they prefer to share us bits. It is among the good issues that we will try this different services, a few them have fantastic preparation labs, individuals who can put these items again collectively within the lab. So a variety of occasions it’s a synergistic factor. They do a number of the work, we do a number of the work, and we collaborate on the publications and works to everyone’s profit.

Garret: That’s nice.

Sabrina: It’s. I used to be considering as we speak as a participant although that’s placing a variety of belief into your individuals. As a result of like me I assumed it was actually good how a lot time you took to clarify to us okay that is how you discover fossils beforehand and like issues to search for and stuff however like I used to be very dangerous at discovering fossils and was just a little bit fearful like oh no I hope I don’t mess something up once I’m digging.

Garret: Yeah. You didn’t.

Sabrina: If you’d like, might share with us like a number of the belongings you have been telling us about, like okay what do you search for once you’re in search of fossils?

Kara Ludwig: So after we are in search of bone and making an attempt to find out the distinction between bone and rock you’re in search of a distinction mainly in shade, form and texture. Usually the colour of bone could be very dissimilar from the rock that it’s embedded in, not on a regular basis. Not on a regular basis. After which the form, one thing that’s formed like a bone, or typically due to the construction of bone issues are extra angular and fewer rounded except they’ve been carried away from some place upstream. After which the feel, once more that is most likely the largest factor, is in search of one thing that’s the texture of bone. Appears form of like a cluster of straws which are bunched collectively, so that you see a linear sample on one aspect and then you definitely would see one thing that’s extra porous on the finish. That’s not all the time simple both, however these together. And the lick check, the place in case you lick your thumb after which contact the bone and see if it sticks, you’ll really really feel that bone keep on with, like suck up that water because of capillary motion you may determine whether or not it’s bone. Hopefully. Once more, not on a regular basis.

Garret: Yeah, and also you even have that, what’s the machine you simply confirmed us known as?

David Trexler: It’s known as a scintillometer. So it detects radiation. We don’t get to make use of it on a regular basis however each as soon as in awhile we’ll discover a quarry that has some radioactive dinosaur bone and we will use that to perform a little little bit of exploration. It’s not tremendous helpful however it’s a variety of enjoyable. I normally simply search for one thing that’s not rock. So once you have a look at sandstone all day by means of a microscope you get fairly accustomed to recognizing one thing that’s not sandstone.

Kara Ludwig: And in case you search for sure layers, like we have been speaking concerning the distinction between one thing that’s gonna be a […] (00:15:26) soil that has a variety of plant materials in it versus one thing that appears gray and uninteresting and prefer it didn’t have as a lot oxygen content material since you don’t have as a lot oxidation of iron stuff in it, you may be extra prone to discover bone in there. Dave really did a variety of surveying in his airplane.

David Trexler: One of many issues that we search for are sure textural patterns in rock layers, and the important thing to that’s actually terrestrial sediments are a jumble. You have a look at a collection of rock that was laid down initially on land and it seems to be totally different you realize in case you journey a number of toes both route or no matter, and that’s very distinctive somewhat than seen the identical rock stratum, you realize, throughout for miles on an publicity. In order that’s actually the distinction between terrestrial and marine sediments, and in order that’s the primary key. You need to search for one thing terrestrial. After which from an airplane you may nonetheless spot you realize terrestrial sediments. You too can spot sure options which are giveaways for you realize indicators that say look right here. One of many issues that inform us rather a lot are accretional beds, channel lag deposits, mainly the place streams used to movement and on the backside of the stream mattress there’s all the time the rocks which are pushed alongside on the underside of the stream. In areas the place fossils are preserved a variety of occasions these are literally the fossils we’re in search of. And what that tells us in an space like that could be a normal image of what animals and generally even what crops have been residing in that exact area and in that snapshot in time. So in case you see a construction that’s clearly a filled-in channel, which is that if you realize what you’re in search of not too tough to identify from an airplane, then you may say okay on the backside of that construction there’s most likely a kind of issues we must always search for.

Garret: And that plus 20, 30, 40 years of expertise.

David Trexler: We gained’t go into what number of years of expertise.

Cory Coverdell: 50? 60?

Garret: Cool

Sabrina: Is that the way you discovered the location the place you discovered your nodosaur?

Cory Coverdell: No, the nodosaur was close to a website we have been already working, and there occurred to be a highway that some individuals had tried to chop into the, to get to the decrease website, and simply at some point I used to be strolling up the highway as a result of we’d been working this website for 2, three months, and once I acquired to the highest of the hill I appeared down and there’s this little factor, it appeared kinda like a turtle shell. However once you appeared nearer it turned out to be a bit of armor, one of many scoots from an armored dinosaur. So we acquired out and we began poking round wanting just a little bit nearer and you discover one other one, discover one other one, we dug again just a little bit, seems we discovered the higher a part of a hind leg from that animal, and this was simply late within the fall so we mainly needed to cowl all the things up and are available again to it. So we got here again the subsequent 12 months and began digging and it seems that there was most likely 60 or 70 % of that animal nonetheless below the bottom, so it was a reasonably cool discover.

Garret: That’s what you have been saying, that’s form of concept. You need simply the sting of the dinosaur protruding.

Cory Coverdell: Precisely, the best discover for a paleontologist is to only discover the tip of the tail protruding or the top of a toe protruding, after which for the whole animal to nonetheless be below the bottom.

David Trexler: Sadly we don’t discover animals all laid out such as you image a skeleton. Should you’ve ever seen an animal carcass decay it’s solely held collectively for a number of days at most after which items begin disappearing. So really this nodosaur was most likely buried fairly quickly as a result of the majority of the animal is just not articulated, it’s not so as, nevertheless it’s what we name related. Mainly many of the bones that went to the animal are nonetheless within the normal space.

Sabrina: When will you realize sufficient to have the ability to identify it?

David Trexler: As quickly as Cory finishes the preparation on it.

Cory Coverdell: Yeah I’ve acquired that jacket and that jacket left, so… Subsequent 12 months most likely.

Garret: How lengthy did it take you to get that out of the rock?

Cory Coverdell: Two months.

Garret: Oh that’s really faster than I might have thought.

David Trexler: Out of the bottom.

Cory Coverdell: Out of the bottom.

David Trexler: He’s been engaged on it for, taking it out of the jackets and issues for the final two years.

Cory Coverdell: Two years, so we dug that in the summertime of 2012. Discovered it observe 2011, after which I’ve been engaged on it ever since.

Garret: I used to be form of questioning, it’s just a little little bit of an apart, however how are you aware, you had talked about that you just go roughly a meter away from the final bone that you just discover. Is that mainly the way you determine okay that is all of it, I’m gonna wrap it up in plaster and take it out?

Cory Coverdell: It’s actually simply an arbitrary quantity. Sooner or later you may dig for one more 50 meters and never discover one other merchandise, one other piece, so that you simply set one meter. One meter’s attainable. So you’d set it at one meter, you dig previous that, and in case you don’t discover the rest you discover a totally different route to go.

David Trexler: And a few websites you wouldn’t give up there, different websites you would possibly give up sooner. The center of it’s expertise and studying how bones are deposited. We do a variety of experimentation with bones in streams and flumes to find out how carcasses will be deposited, however you realize what that can inform us is which route to dig in and the way far to dig, as a result of you realize I’ve dug on quarries the place the bones are a meter aside, and I’ll inform you that’s a depressing factor to do.

Cory Coverdell: Have been these sauropod quarries?

David Trexler: Sure.

Cory Coverdell: Oh. Metered lengthy bone a meter aside makes for an actual huge quarry.

David Trexler: It does.

Garret: I believe the opposite huge dinosaur discovery that you just haven’t named but is that displetosaurus.

Cory Coverdell: That’s a part of the Bob Quarry that Dave was speaking about earlier. Nicely we’ll work on that over the subsequent few months and hopefully we’ll have a publication about this time subsequent 12 months.

Garret: Cool.

Cory Coverdell: Sounds about proper doesn’t it?

David Trexler: It is going to be submitted about, effectively, someday between November and this time subsequent 12 months. So the primary of at the very least six publications we have now listed that we went to do on that. Couple of these we nonetheless have a variety of preparation to take action that’s a kind of websites that isn’t only a single episode. That’s form of a whole individual’s lifetime profession. It’s like not factor to seek out once you’re a fledgling establishment.

Cory Coverdell: Somebody’s PhD, somebody’s post-doc, somebody’s post-post-doc.

David Trexler: Just about.

Garret: What number of paleontologists do you might have on workers?

David Trexler: There’s two of us with graduate levels. We’ve got three extra which are adjunct workers if you’ll. They’re individuals on name that come and work half time and have explicit specialties, you realize. After we discover one thing that’s of their realm of experience they get entangled. In any other case they’ve actual jobs elsewhere.

Garret: Cool. And also you stated it grows in the summertime just a little bit, extra individuals present as much as assist? Or are these extra like volunteers?

David Trexler: Our workers grows as effectively. We’ve acquired a geologist that’s really been with principal part of GSA for a few years that comes out and teaches a category with us each summer season. Lots of people like that that you realize can afford every week or two. Our facility is usually volunteer and all the things we do is paid for by what comes by means of the door so we will’t afford to rent individuals like that full time so that they present up once they can afford to and after we can afford to have them.

Garret: Cool.

Sabrina: Is there the rest that individuals ought to learn about this museum?

David Trexler: For just a little museum we have now already in our collections extra important specimens than most likely anybody else on the Montana Dinosaur Path besides Museum of the Rockies. There’s us and a pair others that actually have a variety of good things that we’ve discovered already. Our mission is definitely to include the general public as a lot as potential in what we do, and…

Cory Coverdell: Palms-on training with precise, precise analysis.

David Trexler: So we actually are curious about individuals coming and seeing what we do, and that leads into considered one of my huge missions if you’ll, my cleaning soap field is paleontology is just not a useless science, no pun meant. Nicely sure there was a pun meant, however the concept is so most of the issues that we’re doing that assist fashionable human life and life-style comes from discoveries that we within the earth sciences have made, however we by no means get credit score for it so any time I’ve a venue like this I like to speak about it. You understand if it weren’t for us and our discoveries individuals would nonetheless assume that alligators and crocodiles have been these primitive creatures that in the event that they have been disturbed would eat their younger, and they might nonetheless assume that turtles and crocs had the identical cold-blooded metabolism. There can be no 30 plus main telescopes wanting, scanning the celebs for the subsequent huge rock from house that may hit us. And you realize there’s points with local weather change that we have now talked about that most likely 5, ten years from now you’ll hear all types of cash being despatched to fashionable local weather analysis based mostly on what they’ve acquired inaccurate in the mean time. So we contribute rather a lot nevertheless it’s arduous to make individuals perceive that understanding the previous is essential to understanding what this Earth is able to and what we’re going to face at present and sooner or later. However that’s actually what we do.

Garret: Yeah.

Sabrina: Yeah, it’s vital.

Garret: Yeah and we had a good time going out and studying. It was very instructional, very enjoyable.

Kara Ludwig: Yay, good.

Sabrina: What’s your favourite dinosaur? We’ll simply go round.

Cory Coverdell: Mine is the one which I discovered. I don’t know what its identify is.

Sabrina: Do you might have any concepts for names or is that one thing that…

Cory Coverdell: Not that I’m gonna placed on a podcast.

Sabrina: That’s honest.

Cory Coverdell: Relying on how irritating it’s it has a number of attention-grabbing names.

Kara Ludwig: I just like the Xenosaurus as a result of it’s very odd and Microraptor once more as a result of it’s very odd.

Cory Coverdell: You may relate to it proper?

Kara Ludwig: Yeah. Identical to me.

David Trexler: Mine has all the time been the one which my household and I’ve been concerned with just about each main discovery of since its first being identified, and that’s Maisaura.

Kara Ludwig: Montana State fossil.

Garret: Put it on a license plate.

David Trexler: Though my license plate, due to my final identify my nickname is Trex, so I’ve Trex on my license plate. It wasn’t till I really acquired it and anyone noticed it and got here in, oh you want T-rex? No, not notably. Nicely you might have it in your license plate. No… I assume I do. Sorry about that.

Garret: That’s nice.

Sabrina: Oops.

Garret: Cool.

Sabrina: Nicely thanks a lot for taking the time to speak with us.

Kara Ludwig: Thanks guys, thanks for popping out.

Sabrina: It was nice.

Kara Ludwig: Thanks for not breaking something and for by no means having me freak out since you by no means stated uh-oh.

Sabrina: We saved that to ourselves.

Garret: Till we discovered that we didn’t break something.


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